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	<title>Comments on: Mirror&#8217;s Edge Demo</title>
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	<link>http://www.stevestreeting.com/2008/11/10/mirrors-edge-demo/</link>
	<description>Man bites Ogre</description>
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		<title>By: xinaesthetic</title>
		<link>http://www.stevestreeting.com/2008/11/10/mirrors-edge-demo/comment-page-1/#comment-242648</link>
		<dc:creator>xinaesthetic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevestreeting.com/?p=1012#comment-242648</guid>
		<description>Head-tracking could be a good approach in future.  You may well have already seen this demo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw using the wiimote for this purpose; there&#039;s also a similar commercial product which is compatible with some PC games.

The perspective shift can be exaggerated, apparently with good results; so you might be able to move your head down by a few degrees to see your feet very briefly while still comfortably watching the screen.

This seems to have potential for being much more sympathetic to a console environment (ie, living room rather than desktop) than our beloved FPS mouse control.  I believe it would do a lot more for immersion than stereo does - but you&#039;d still need some sort of head wear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Head-tracking could be a good approach in future.  You may well have already seen this demo <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw</a> using the wiimote for this purpose; there&#8217;s also a similar commercial product which is compatible with some PC games.</p>
<p>The perspective shift can be exaggerated, apparently with good results; so you might be able to move your head down by a few degrees to see your feet very briefly while still comfortably watching the screen.</p>
<p>This seems to have potential for being much more sympathetic to a console environment (ie, living room rather than desktop) than our beloved FPS mouse control.  I believe it would do a lot more for immersion than stereo does &#8211; but you&#8217;d still need some sort of head wear.</p>
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		<title>By: Corpus Callosum</title>
		<link>http://www.stevestreeting.com/2008/11/10/mirrors-edge-demo/comment-page-1/#comment-241469</link>
		<dc:creator>Corpus Callosum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:15:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevestreeting.com/?p=1012#comment-241469</guid>
		<description>elias is right.  

jumping/ducking/using-/-activating.... all things that should be on shoulder/trigger/thumbstick-press-downs.

you shouldn&#039;t have to stop looking around (ESPECIALLY when it takes so LONG to look around with most gamepad FPS control schemes) to trigger any of those actions.

i can&#039;t play most FPS games on a console because most have the stupid defaults that have become standard for some mindboggling reason.  while defaults have improved over the years, the standard FPS gamepad controls reminds me A LITTLE of all the whacky defaults the earliest (wolfenstein 3d, doom era) FPS games used to use.

and the fact that you can&#039;t assign any action to any input is a mortal sin.   these companies pour YEARS of effort into these games, but can&#039;t be bothered with a day or 2 of making proper controller customization?!   
one of the damn easiest tasks there IS in the coding world!  

so their years of effort are totally wasted on people like me who can&#039;t/won&#039;t tolerate idiotic controls.
if only ONE coder had spent a day or 2 more.   
*shakes head*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>elias is right.  </p>
<p>jumping/ducking/using-/-activating&#8230;. all things that should be on shoulder/trigger/thumbstick-press-downs.</p>
<p>you shouldn&#8217;t have to stop looking around (ESPECIALLY when it takes so LONG to look around with most gamepad FPS control schemes) to trigger any of those actions.</p>
<p>i can&#8217;t play most FPS games on a console because most have the stupid defaults that have become standard for some mindboggling reason.  while defaults have improved over the years, the standard FPS gamepad controls reminds me A LITTLE of all the whacky defaults the earliest (wolfenstein 3d, doom era) FPS games used to use.</p>
<p>and the fact that you can&#8217;t assign any action to any input is a mortal sin.   these companies pour YEARS of effort into these games, but can&#8217;t be bothered with a day or 2 of making proper controller customization?!<br />
one of the damn easiest tasks there IS in the coding world!  </p>
<p>so their years of effort are totally wasted on people like me who can&#8217;t/won&#8217;t tolerate idiotic controls.<br />
if only ONE coder had spent a day or 2 more.<br />
*shakes head*</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.stevestreeting.com/2008/11/10/mirrors-edge-demo/comment-page-1/#comment-241157</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:46:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevestreeting.com/?p=1012#comment-241157</guid>
		<description>@Vectrex: horses for courses. Some genres work better with different types of view, and I happen to think platforming has been 3rd person for years for a good reason. Despite how well DICE managed to make it work first-person, it has to work extra hard and I still think it&#039;s at a disadvantage. It&#039;s an extremely interesting experiment and I applaud them for doing it, but I can&#039;t see the genre as a whole going down this route heavily in the future. 

@Kentamanos: Hmm, I&#039;ve never tried ginger. When I&#039;m travelling, I use &#039;sea bands&#039; - those elasticated wrist bands which apply force to a pressure point on your wrist. Yeah I know, sounds dumb, but they really work. I discovered them a decade ago after having travel sickness for years and not wanting to take pills anymore - I was super-skeptical but they really help; they don&#039;t remove the sickness entirely, but they make it better and you also recover quicker on reaching solid ground (15 mins instead of several hours).

Funny I never get motion sickness in FPS&#039;s though, Mirror&#039;s Edge excluded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Vectrex: horses for courses. Some genres work better with different types of view, and I happen to think platforming has been 3rd person for years for a good reason. Despite how well DICE managed to make it work first-person, it has to work extra hard and I still think it&#8217;s at a disadvantage. It&#8217;s an extremely interesting experiment and I applaud them for doing it, but I can&#8217;t see the genre as a whole going down this route heavily in the future. </p>
<p>@Kentamanos: Hmm, I&#8217;ve never tried ginger. When I&#8217;m travelling, I use &#8216;sea bands&#8217; &#8211; those elasticated wrist bands which apply force to a pressure point on your wrist. Yeah I know, sounds dumb, but they really work. I discovered them a decade ago after having travel sickness for years and not wanting to take pills anymore &#8211; I was super-skeptical but they really help; they don&#8217;t remove the sickness entirely, but they make it better and you also recover quicker on reaching solid ground (15 mins instead of several hours).</p>
<p>Funny I never get motion sickness in FPS&#8217;s though, Mirror&#8217;s Edge excluded.</p>
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		<title>By: Kentamanos</title>
		<link>http://www.stevestreeting.com/2008/11/10/mirrors-edge-demo/comment-page-1/#comment-240956</link>
		<dc:creator>Kentamanos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevestreeting.com/?p=1012#comment-240956</guid>
		<description>I get fairly motion sick as well on some games. It&#039;s usually games with way too much &quot;bobbing&quot; while running or extremely confined spaces with lots of looking around corners. I forget the name of it now, but that small game someone did that was very similar in concept to Portal (with much less refined graphics and a different style in general) is the last one to make me pray for puke.

They say ginger is really good for it and I have found that &quot;ginger beer&quot; helps with it when I really want to play a game for some reason (*cough* Portal *cough*). If you&#039;re not familiar with ginger beer, it&#039;s like ginger ale on steroids (spicy and will clear the sinuses), and contains no alcohol.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I get fairly motion sick as well on some games. It&#8217;s usually games with way too much &#8220;bobbing&#8221; while running or extremely confined spaces with lots of looking around corners. I forget the name of it now, but that small game someone did that was very similar in concept to Portal (with much less refined graphics and a different style in general) is the last one to make me pray for puke.</p>
<p>They say ginger is really good for it and I have found that &#8220;ginger beer&#8221; helps with it when I really want to play a game for some reason (*cough* Portal *cough*). If you&#8217;re not familiar with ginger beer, it&#8217;s like ginger ale on steroids (spicy and will clear the sinuses), and contains no alcohol.</p>
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		<title>By: Fredrik</title>
		<link>http://www.stevestreeting.com/2008/11/10/mirrors-edge-demo/comment-page-1/#comment-240943</link>
		<dc:creator>Fredrik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevestreeting.com/?p=1012#comment-240943</guid>
		<description>Ok, I can buy the feel-argument in the sense that it might be easier to know where you are related to the spot your aiming for and therefore increase your sense of timing. But no, I can&#039;t see my feet while running. Maybe I have damaged sight or something but unless I tilt my head I can&#039;t see them. Perhaps I run too much like Michael Johnson. 

About the loss of depth perception with wider FOV: This would be able to solve by some stereo technique right? I am not too keen on wearing those cardboard-plastic-glasses though.

We&#039;ll just have to wait and see if someone starts a thread about this in the forums...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, I can buy the feel-argument in the sense that it might be easier to know where you are related to the spot your aiming for and therefore increase your sense of timing. But no, I can&#8217;t see my feet while running. Maybe I have damaged sight or something but unless I tilt my head I can&#8217;t see them. Perhaps I run too much like Michael Johnson. </p>
<p>About the loss of depth perception with wider FOV: This would be able to solve by some stereo technique right? I am not too keen on wearing those cardboard-plastic-glasses though.</p>
<p>We&#8217;ll just have to wait and see if someone starts a thread about this in the forums&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Vectrex</title>
		<link>http://www.stevestreeting.com/2008/11/10/mirrors-edge-demo/comment-page-1/#comment-240934</link>
		<dc:creator>Vectrex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevestreeting.com/?p=1012#comment-240934</guid>
		<description>I personally can&#039;t stand 3rd person anything. I feel completely detached and uninterested. 
I thought a first person game like this could work and from the videos it looks like they&#039;ve done a good job. Any problem you can point out isn&#039;t a reason to just make it 3rd person, it&#039;s a reason to think of a solution :)
I also don&#039;t think motion sickness can be avoided. FPS games also cause motion sickness in some people. Making a game disorienting is actually part of the game for me. I love how they kept the rolls fully first person. Not knowing exactly whats going on gets me into it and is a game in itself to get that orientation. For example I always play racing games cockpit mode, even though it&#039;s harder to see. I guess you can&#039;t please everyone :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally can&#8217;t stand 3rd person anything. I feel completely detached and uninterested.<br />
I thought a first person game like this could work and from the videos it looks like they&#8217;ve done a good job. Any problem you can point out isn&#8217;t a reason to just make it 3rd person, it&#8217;s a reason to think of a solution <img src='http://www.stevestreeting.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
I also don&#8217;t think motion sickness can be avoided. FPS games also cause motion sickness in some people. Making a game disorienting is actually part of the game for me. I love how they kept the rolls fully first person. Not knowing exactly whats going on gets me into it and is a game in itself to get that orientation. For example I always play racing games cockpit mode, even though it&#8217;s harder to see. I guess you can&#8217;t please everyone <img src='http://www.stevestreeting.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.stevestreeting.com/2008/11/10/mirrors-edge-demo/comment-page-1/#comment-240901</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 12:23:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevestreeting.com/?p=1012#comment-240901</guid>
		<description>&quot;I think you have some valid points altough I find the complaints about not seeing your feet a bit unfounded. I can’t see my feet when running or jumping either but that doesn’t make me trip all the time.&quot;

That&#039;s because you can feel your feet, plus actually you can see the ground below you even when you&#039;re looking forward, because your peripheral field of view is a lot wider than an LCD viewport. In a FPS you really don&#039;t have a direct correlation between where you feet are and the edge of a platform unless you angle the view down, or play enough that you can program the offset from the bottom of the viewport to where your feet actually are into your head.

A wider FOV is one option, but it would also reduce depth perception which would have other consequences. Another option that I thought of was to make the view automatically &#039;drift&#039; down a little when you near the edge of a building, a bit like how other FPS&#039;s sometimes automatically align the view with sloping floors. But again this has a downside in that if you were looking to catch a rail to swing on, you might lose sight of that as your view drifted so you could see the approaching edge. 

As I say, a third person view would resolve most of these problems, but it would then remove the USP of this game. I respect the stance they&#039;ve taken - to really see whether it could be done as an FPS, and they&#039;ve proved that it can, and it plays surprisingly well, but I have to say that despite the excellent work, on a pure gameplay basis (rather than a &#039;pushing the envelope&#039; basis) the FPS view just doesn&#039;t work as well for a platforming mechanic, and the free running in Assassin&#039;s Creed while less revolutionary, was more playable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I think you have some valid points altough I find the complaints about not seeing your feet a bit unfounded. I can’t see my feet when running or jumping either but that doesn’t make me trip all the time.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s because you can feel your feet, plus actually you can see the ground below you even when you&#8217;re looking forward, because your peripheral field of view is a lot wider than an LCD viewport. In a FPS you really don&#8217;t have a direct correlation between where you feet are and the edge of a platform unless you angle the view down, or play enough that you can program the offset from the bottom of the viewport to where your feet actually are into your head.</p>
<p>A wider FOV is one option, but it would also reduce depth perception which would have other consequences. Another option that I thought of was to make the view automatically &#8216;drift&#8217; down a little when you near the edge of a building, a bit like how other FPS&#8217;s sometimes automatically align the view with sloping floors. But again this has a downside in that if you were looking to catch a rail to swing on, you might lose sight of that as your view drifted so you could see the approaching edge. </p>
<p>As I say, a third person view would resolve most of these problems, but it would then remove the USP of this game. I respect the stance they&#8217;ve taken &#8211; to really see whether it could be done as an FPS, and they&#8217;ve proved that it can, and it plays surprisingly well, but I have to say that despite the excellent work, on a pure gameplay basis (rather than a &#8216;pushing the envelope&#8217; basis) the FPS view just doesn&#8217;t work as well for a platforming mechanic, and the free running in Assassin&#8217;s Creed while less revolutionary, was more playable.</p>
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		<title>By: Fredrik</title>
		<link>http://www.stevestreeting.com/2008/11/10/mirrors-edge-demo/comment-page-1/#comment-240874</link>
		<dc:creator>Fredrik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 10:11:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevestreeting.com/?p=1012#comment-240874</guid>
		<description>I think you have some valid points altough I find the complaints about not seeing your feet a bit unfounded. I can&#039;t see my feet when running or jumping either but that doesn&#039;t make me trip all the time. Peripheral vision would be great...what is the big catch in creating such a technique? To me it seems like some games (mostly racing) already have something close to this effect with all the motion blur going on at the sides...couldn&#039;t you just make the camera angle a bit wider? I may not have thought this through very well but I would gladly see someone realizing this! :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you have some valid points altough I find the complaints about not seeing your feet a bit unfounded. I can&#8217;t see my feet when running or jumping either but that doesn&#8217;t make me trip all the time. Peripheral vision would be great&#8230;what is the big catch in creating such a technique? To me it seems like some games (mostly racing) already have something close to this effect with all the motion blur going on at the sides&#8230;couldn&#8217;t you just make the camera angle a bit wider? I may not have thought this through very well but I would gladly see someone realizing this! <img src='http://www.stevestreeting.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Damien Guard</title>
		<link>http://www.stevestreeting.com/2008/11/10/mirrors-edge-demo/comment-page-1/#comment-240739</link>
		<dc:creator>Damien Guard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 21:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevestreeting.com/?p=1012#comment-240739</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re in a great position to show them what a peripheral vision technique would look like - add one to Ogre and change the face of first-person games forever!

[)amien</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re in a great position to show them what a peripheral vision technique would look like &#8211; add one to Ogre and change the face of first-person games forever!</p>
<p>[)amien</p>
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		<title>By: elias</title>
		<link>http://www.stevestreeting.com/2008/11/10/mirrors-edge-demo/comment-page-1/#comment-240708</link>
		<dc:creator>elias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 18:57:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stevestreeting.com/?p=1012#comment-240708</guid>
		<description>I played the demo also and agree for the most part, though I don&#039;t really get motion sick and so that part didn&#039;t bother me as much (the rolls were still disorienting). I did run around and die a few times because I was being rushed (shot at) and didn&#039;t have time to look around the level to figure out where I was supposed to go.

I thought the controls were a little awkward also, but hopefully they would be nicer after having used them for a while? At any rate, my guess as to why they didn&#039;t use the face buttons is that they wanted you to be able to use the right stick to look around at the same time as crouching/jumping.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I played the demo also and agree for the most part, though I don&#8217;t really get motion sick and so that part didn&#8217;t bother me as much (the rolls were still disorienting). I did run around and die a few times because I was being rushed (shot at) and didn&#8217;t have time to look around the level to figure out where I was supposed to go.</p>
<p>I thought the controls were a little awkward also, but hopefully they would be nicer after having used them for a while? At any rate, my guess as to why they didn&#8217;t use the face buttons is that they wanted you to be able to use the right stick to look around at the same time as crouching/jumping.</p>
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